Talk:Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Maxim Masiutin (talk · contribs) 15:30, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Femke, Ward20 and The Quirky Kitty! Thank you for you work on the article and for nominating it.

I review the revision 1212410967 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myalgic_encephalomyelitis/chronic_fatigue_syndrome&oldid=1212410967

On references, the reference for PMID 28033311 is duplicated: one with name "r", another with name "pmid28033311", but even the quote is the same in both ("The highest prevalence of illness is in persons aged 40–50 years...")

On date format, please consider consistent date format use in citations, i.e. the dates formatted according to the "DMY" (Day Month Year) style that you selected. While most of the dates are in the DMY format, such as "22 February 2024", there are a few instances of the YYYY-MM-DD format (an ISO 8601 format): "2024-04-02", "2011-06-01", "2024-02-22".

The use of references in the lead is not consistent: either all claims in the reference should be backed up by references, or no references at all should be used in the lead, in this case the lead should repeat all the claims made in the body where they are referenced. The first paragraph in the lead does not have any reference (while the other paragraphs have references). This paragraph does not have references: "Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating long-term medical condition. People with ME/CFS experience flare-ups of the illness or crashes following minor physical or mental activity. This is known as post-exertional malaise (PEM) and is the hallmark symptom of the illness."

On lead size in paragraphs: the lead should have at most 4 paragraphs, while technically the lead has 5 paragraphs.

While I'm all up for a four-paragraph lead, the actual guidance is more flexible: WP:LEADLENGTH. If the lead remains manageable, an occasional 5-paragraph lead is okay if that works better with organisation. For instance, if you have 5 distinct topics to work with. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:19, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Don't worry, I got it down to 4 paragraphs. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 13:20, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

On grammar, in the first paragraph of the lead there is the following text: "Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating long-term medical condition. People with ME/CFS experience flare-ups of the illness or crashes following minor physical or mental activity. This is known as post-exertional malaise (PEM) and is the hallmark symptom of the illness.", but it may be unclear what "This" in the last sentence refers to; please consider rewriting the sentence/paragraph to remove the unclear reference. The pronoun "This" in the last sentence could refer to either "flare-ups of the illness or crashes" or "minor physical or mental activity", which can cause confusion. Here's a possible rewrite to clarify the reference: "Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) is a debilitating long-term medical condition. People with ME/CFS experience flare-ups of the illness or crashes. These symptoms, known as post-exertional malaise (PEM), typically follow minor physical or mental activity and are the hallmark symptom of the illness." In this revised version, "These symptoms" clearly refer to "flare-ups of the illness or crashes," and it's specified that they follow minor physical or mental activity. This should eliminate any ambiguity.

Also, there are spelling errors:

1. "unavaible" (sic),
2. use of curly apostrophe instead of the straight one in violation of the Manual of style ("people’s")
3. "targetting" -- is it a British spelling? Does the article uses British or American English? Please consider using either British or American English and declare which one did you use via a template, such as {{Use American English|date=March 2024}}

On wikilinks, please also try to avoid piped wikilinks in the lead, as they may be misleading in Wikipedia. For example the word "mechanisms" is linked, but the reader, when clicking it, goes to a Wikipedia article about "pathophysiology". Piped wikilinks should be avoided because …they can create confusion for the reader. The reader might expect to be directed to a page that directly corresponds to the linked text, but instead, they are taken to a different page with a different title. This discrepancy can disrupt the reader’s understanding and flow of reading. Instead, consider using direct links to the relevant Wikipedia articles. If the term "pathophysiology" is more accurate, use that term directly in the text and link it to its corresponding Wikipedia page. This way, the reader knows exactly what to expect when they click on a link: our goal is to make information as accessible and understandable as possible for all readers. I also found wikilinks on terms mold and pregnancy, which are probably the commonly understood terms and should not be wikilinked. There are no specific dictionary on which terms are considered commonly understood by a broad audience, but generally, terms that are part of everyday language or basic education are considered common knowledge. For instance, words like "water", "book", and so on, are universally understood and do not require wikilinks. However, the decision to wikilink a term can also depend on the context and the intended audience of the text. If the text is intended for a specialized audience, such as a scientific research paper, it might be appropriate to wikilink terms that are common in that field but not necessarily understood by the general public. In the case of "mold" and "pregnancy", while these terms are generally understood, they may or may no encompass broad topics with many subtopics that readers might or might not want to explore further. Therefore, wikilinking them could or could not provide valuable additional information to the reader: I am not sure about that, I just raised my concerns of these words, ultimately, the decision to wikilink a term should be guided by whether it enhances the reader’s understanding of the text, as it is always a good idea to consider the potential benefits to the reader and balance them against the risk of overloading the text with unnecessary links.

On the terms in the lead that are hard to understand: the word "pathophysiology" may not be understood by a general audience, it might be beneficial to provide a brief, simplified explanation of the term within the article (you can refer to review PMID: 37838675 when adding details on pacing). You can make explanations for specific terms, making them easier to understand, in parentheses immediately after the term is first used, or a synonym can be used instead that can be easier to understand, even a few simpler words that aim to have the same meaning. Also, there is a term "orthostatic intolerance" is used in the lead without immediate explanation or clarification on what is it: this is a medical term that might be difficult for some readers to understand. Also, there are terms: "Pacing and activity management", which, in the context of ME/CFS, refer to specific strategies for managing the condition, however, they might not be clear to all readers, as they are not immediately explained.

On clinicians' awareness, it is mentioned in the article that clinicians may be unfamiliar with ME/CFS, as it is often not covered in medical school, still, there is no official disease in the international classification of diseases such as ICD-10 or ICD-11, therefore, the question arises on why do the clinicians have to know about the disease if it is does not officially exists in the ICD? It is not explicitly mentioned in the article that ME/CFS as a disease exists (described) in peer-reviewed literature, and there are clinical practice guidelines or similar documents, for example, the CDC provides information for healthcare providers on ME/CFS, including assessment, managing symptoms, and providing other supportive strategies to improve patients’ quality of life: https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/index.html ; besides that, the National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) in Australia recommended updating the Australian clinical guidelines and selected three international guidelines for interim use, as described by ME/CFS South Australia Inc, a Registered Charity: https://mecfssa.org.au/resources/clinical-guidelines-including-diagnostic-criteria ; also the National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) in the UK has guidelines for diagnosing and managing ME/CFS in children, young people, and adults: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng206 ; also the US ME/CFS Clinician Coalition provides resources for medical providers caring for people with ME/CFS: https://www.cdc.gov/me-cfs/healthcare-providers/clinical-care-patients-mecfs/index.html ; therefore, in the case of conditions like ME/CFS that are not included in the ICD, information can often be found in scientific literature, clinical case reports, and guidelines or consensus documents published by professional organizations, so that clinicians can also learn from their colleagues' experiences and from patients themselves; the absence of a condition from the ICD does not mean it doesn't exist or is not valid, as provided by the documents mentions; the ICD is updated periodically, and conditions can be added as more is learned about them and as their recognition in the medical community grows -- this can be the explanation why the clinicians should be aware of ME/CFS, i.e. this information may serve grounds for the imperative for the clinicians to be aware of this condition, as I said earlier, while the lack of formal education and recognition in the ICD can make it more challenging for clinicians to learn about conditions like ME/CFS, there are still many resources available for those who seek to understand and help their patients with these conditions and that it underscores the importance of continuous learning in the medical profession. Please consider adding these clinical practice guidelines in the article as grounds for the clinicians to know about this disease.

A statement such as "ME/CFS is real" is not neutral imo, as it uses the frame of a disease which may not exist. Compare with a statement such as "climate change is real", which you see in click-baity news articles. In the scientific literature on climate denial, this is considered poor science communication, as this pre-supposed there is a (valid) disagreement on the existence of climate change.

The literature on ME/CFS clearly says ME/CFS is included in the ICD, even though it's included under the two subparts of the name. We already mention the NICE guidelines and the CDC in the next. The fact we refer to these guidelines already implies they exist, it is unnecessary to include more explicit sentences. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:02, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

On broad coverage of the topic: please consider explaining the link between Post-Infectious Neurological Syndromes (PINS) and ME/CFS. Post-Treatment Lyme Disease (PTLD), among others. Is ME/CFS a type of PINS or they are separate independent diseases? If ME/CFS is a type of PINS with Epstein-Barr virus often as a trigger? This virus, and the long covid were mentioned in the Viral infections subsection, but not the notion of Post-Infectious Neurological Syndromes (PINS). Please consider explaining this notion.

I hadn't heard of PINS before today; none of the sources I'm aware of describe ME/CFS as a PINS, even though post-infectious ME/CFS might be one. I didn't find any sources when I searched PINS and ME/CFS together on PubMed, or when searching ME/CFS and "Post-Infectious Neurological Syndromes", using the standard filters (<5 years, reviews). Therefore, I do not believe it WP:DUE. We embarrasingly don't have an article on PTLDS, only on chronic Lyme (which is basically the same, except people who use the term believe in ineffective treatments..). I've added a paragraph to the classification section explaining the link with post-acute infection syndromes, which also encompasses PTLDS and long COVID. Hope that addresses your point. —Femke 🐦 (talk) 11:58, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Please also consider mentioning whether study long COVID may contribute to understanding of ME/CFS, and vice versa, in the section on the research direction, if that is covered by significant sources, such as reputable reviews.

The article is verifiable, it contains no original research, no copyright violation and no plagiarism, it is broad in coverage, by addressing the main aspects of the topic, it stays focused on the topic, it is neutral, stable and properly illustrated.

However, I have concerns on whether the lead section is easily understandable by a broad audience, and whether it complies on the Manual of Style in some instances I mentioned earlier. Looking forward for your reply.

Maxim Masiutin (talk) 19:46, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. Really appreciate the comments that exceed the GA criteria, as we're slowly prepping for FA. I'm a bit ill at the moment, but hope to make a proper start tomorrow.

ME/CFS is included in the ICD, and has been since 1969. What in the text makes you believe it isn't? The fact that ICD-10 didn't have the code for CFS, only for ME? —Femke 🐦 (talk) 20:12, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

My comments fit the GA criteria in part, and exceed in part: for example, comments on grammar or manual of style fit the GA criteria, while other comments such as on completeness do not prevent the article from complying to the GA criteria, however, the GA criteria mention that the article should be broad in its coverage (it addresses the main aspects of the topic), and there is wide margin on appreciation, one reviewer may consider some information sufficient while another reviewer may consider the same information insufficient, however, there should be common sense, and we should keep in mind that the GA review is a lightweight process, still, important topics should be covered. If you state that ME/CFS is included in the ICD, and has been since 1969, please specify that in the article and give reliable sources, as the article currently states the following (quote): "In the ICD-10, only (benign) ME was listed, and there was no mention of CFS." Besides that, the article lists the following: "ME/CFS has been classified as a neurological disease by the World Health Organization (WHO) since 1969, initially under the name benign myalgic encephalomyelitis. Even though the cause of the illness is unknown, symptoms indicate a central role of the nervous system. Alternatively, based on abnormalities of immune cells, it has been classified as a neuroimmune condition. In the WHO's most recent classification, the ICD-11, both chronic fatigue syndrome and myalgic encephalomyelitis are listed under the term post-viral fatigue syndrome. They are classified as other disorders of the nervous system." Therefore, the article does not mention that the exact name "Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome" is classified in the ICD. The scientific articles and clinical practice guidelines list explicit sequence of 5 words "Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome", but not the ICD. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 20:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Hello, Femke, Ward20 and The Quirky Kitty, the GA maintenance bot is not fully running today, see may be running at erratic times today Maxim Masiutin (talk) 20:13, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for looking at the article. I'm going through some of the simpler fixes right now. As for citations in the lead, let's include them. This is a medical article and many aspects of the disease have been disputed. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 03:51, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

@The Quirky Kitty if you wish to keep them, please add a citation for the first paragraph that lacks citations. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 07:05, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I did that, and couldn't find any other uncited statements. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 07:33, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I did minor edits to my initial review: they don't alternate the meaning, and are mostly technical. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 07:37, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I saw that in the words that differ between British and American spelling, there were more British-spelled words, so I put the template to use British English and replaced the American-spelled words to their British counterparts. According to WP:GAN/I#R3, "In the case of a marginally non-compliant nomination, if the problems are easy to resolve, you may be bold and fix them yourself." Maxim Masiutin (talk) 08:00, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I see that you resolved all the significant issues except the use of the following complex terms in the lead:

1. pacing and activity management
2. orthostatic intolerance

MOS:INTRO states the following: Make the lead section accessible to as broad an audience as possible. Where possible, avoid difficult-to-understand terminology, [...] Where uncommon terms are essential, they should be placed in context, linked, and briefly defined. The subject should be placed in a context familiar to a normal reader. Maxim Masiutin (talk) 08:09, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I fixed that shortly after you sent this message. Femke addressed several more of your concerns, and I'm seeing what else I can fix up. The Quirky Kitty (talk) 13:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.